PODCAST

 

SHOW NOTES & TRANSCRIPT:

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

 Intro/Outro: 00:00 Welcome to the winning with shopify podcast, the podcast that will teach you to take your shopify store and turn it into an automated sales machine with the latest marketing, email, sales and social media advice, strategies and tips from experts without the fluff. Your host, Caroline Balinska, the founder of justaskparker.com, the only small marketing task agency for shopify owners with over 10 years experience in marketing, manufacturing, design, and ecommerce. She shares her knowledge and interviews the experts to help you in your journey to success. Now, here's your host, Caroline Balinska.

Caroline: 00:37 Hi everyone. Welcome back I'm Caroline Balinska and I'm excited today to have Jemma Porter with me. She is a copywriter, but not just any copywriters, so this is really, really exciting for me. Jemma is a copywriter specializing in ecommerce. That's why I wanted to get her on the show today is particularly focused on the fashion, be it so the past six years she has worked with brands such as Tommy Hilfiger, Zalondo, Bowden, Louis Vitton and Mothercare and that's through a company called Quill content where she does a lot of work with them, but she also does a freelancing work as well and she's worked alongside startups in Berlin and Edinburgh as well. So I'm really excited to have her on the line. Jemma, welcome. Great to have you here. How are you today? Very good, thank you. So how about you. Tell everyone a little bit more about yourself and your history and then we'll get into some questions. Okay.

Jemma: 01:33 So I've been doing this for over six years now. I have a background in public relations. I studied at university when I graduated I went straight into working for a digital marketing agency and the social media department. So that was my background. I spent about a year, two years working in social media for making the change over to copywriting. I enjoy the writing part, social media a lot more than the other bits, like photo editing ect. So I started freelancing in 2011. I went full time freelance in 2012, at which point I was working mainly privately within the travel sector before moving over to fashion when I started working with content. sorry, go. I was gonna say, um, so I've written for lots of big name fashion brands and small ones as well. Mainly focusing on category descriptions, product descriptions and buying guides as well as blog posts, which I'll play a major role in the Seo strategy.

Caroline: 02:39 So it's Seo, but it's also about getting people to purchase as well because I think it's important from both aspects.

Jemma: 02:46 Oh yeah, definitely. Um, a lot of it is sort of direct response. So really the main thing is you're replacing the in store experience and that's the main thing you have to remember. I think that's a really important point and I'm

Caroline: 02:59 a really great one where you and I spoke the other day and when I found out about you and we got on a call together and we had a chat and what I loved is that you mentioned that to me is that it's replacing the in store experience and I think that people understanding that sort of helped some put it into perspective the importance of copywriting. So do you want to give us a little bit more about that? Can you explain that a little bit more detail?

Jemma: 03:22 Yeah, definitely. So with the in store experience, if you imagine that you're a customer on the High Street walking into a store and something catches your eye, you'll go over to and you'll look at, you'll touch it, you'll feel it, you'll see how it looks and, you'll get a really good idea of the product. So it's the same with the website. People will see a product they're interested in on your landing page. When you click on it, the copy should replace the Experience how it feels to touch where you should. Always try to explain the way something feels perfume or something. You want to explain how it smells. You want to kind of give somebody an in depth evocative feeling of your product because I think one of the important things is with the fashion is you can easily see this is a stylish dress, but everything on your site should be technically, it should be stylish, so we have to think about what is that makes this product unique, what is unique selling point and what is the one thing that's going to make this customer fall in love with the product?

Caroline: 04:16 Yeah, that's fantastic. That's a very good example of people using the word stylish. Just using that over and over and I guess when someone's looking at your website and if you've just got that as your first word on every single product, people sort of think, why would I keep reading it because it's just going to be the same as the last explanation.

Jemma: 04:34 Exactly. Yeah, and again, if you're selling clothing, presumably everything you're selling is going to be stylish are you have it on your website. So I think it's important just to write it down first when you're first getting the copy out there, just to kind of get to your brain, but I think he needs to remember every word counts and that might be as quite a redundant thing to say that something is fashionable or stylish.

Caroline: 04:55 Yeah, that's, that's really good. And so how important do you think copywriting is to an ecommerce business and is there any businesses that need to pay more attention? Like any types of businesses that need to pay more attention to copywriting than others?

Jemma: 05:09 I think copywriting is extremely important for any commerce business. As I said before, it's really replacing the in store experience. You really want the customer to go from thinking, I'd like to have that too. I must have that. I need that product to my life. And also there's a lot of information that you can go through your copywriting, for example, you about your page, talking about your brand, building that loyalty with your customer base isn't that should pay more attention to copywriting. I think when it comes to high end products, it's more important because you want more of a commitment from your buyer and because spending a couple of dollars, you know, if they don't like it did not last much, but they're going to be spending hundreds of dollars on a sweater, then you're really going to have to talk them into it.

Caroline: 05:56 But you work with fashion brands, so do you find that in that case something like sunglasses, were there $20 is not going to be as important as something that's $500 or do you think with fashion it sort of works with all of them being just as important or do you also see that across fashion as well?

Jemma: 06:13 I would say everything is important, but yeah, some things were expensive. I always think a little bit harder, but what I'm saying because I feel like you really need to convince people to part with that much money. If it's going to be hundreds of dollars or thousands of dollars and the case of Louis Baton, you really have to find what's going to make this customer part with that amount of money.

Caroline: 06:32 Yeah, and so do you think that there's any areas of copy that are more important, like the returns page or the product details or the social media profiles or maybe the about page, like where does that sort of process. Does it start somewhere or is there a page that's more important?

Jemma: 06:47 For me, I think the product pages are the most important just because that's the thing that's going to get the person to fit something in their basket and to me second to that would be the about page because I think being able to tell your brand story and who you are is a good way to build a rapport with your customer. So if you specialize in selling, for example, organic salt from the south of France, being able to talk about how important in the St Francis says about the provenance of the ingredients you use, this is going to make your customer saying, I'm making a really wise investment here by buying as far as so and then they're going to think about that when you get there. So they're going to about your brand and how amazing it is. It's gonna. Give them a more in depth feeling about the product and they're more likely to return later on.

Caroline: 07:30 And so on a shopify website, generally speaking, I don't know how much you know about shopify in general, we're talking about copywriting. So 20 expects you to have very deep knowledge of the theme because you do work with many different sorts of brands. With shopify websites on the homepage, there's usually, um, the things, the way they built them in, they usually have a little blurb that the, about pat and then you have an about page. So that little blurb on the home page, is there anything that someone should think about more importantly to put that compared to what goes on their, about page or is it the same thing? Do you just copy your about page? What do you recommend?

Jemma: 08:07 I would say you want it to be more succinct if it's a smaller amount of space. Um, so because time is of the essence and people are just going to scan it, you want to think of it, what the most important things about your brand are that people should know. Um, so that could be your reasoning behind launching the company. It could be where your base. Yeah, I think he just really wants to give people an overview of what your company's all about, so why you do what you do and what kind of products you can expect to see on your page, why they should come back next week and check to see if you've uploaded anything new.

Caroline: 08:37 Yeah, that's a good one. So giving people an idea that we actually do update our products or put new products on a regular basis. And so do you think being a copywriter, this is a question that a lot of people are sitting there thinking, oh my God, you sound like you know what you're talking about, but I afford you.

Jemma: 08:56 Do you think that people can ride that orange descriptions to their website or do you really think it's the job of copywriter that has to be tied? I definitely think that listeners can write your own descriptions. I think it's like Hannah's saying, it's a skill that you can learn. It's just start with understanding the formula that you have to go through. So for example, you have to think about what your customer needs to know and the easiest way to start would obviously the easiest way to begin is just by writing down some bullet points and then trying to connect them and just prioritizing them based on importance. It's also about knowing who your customer is, like who your target audiences.

Jemma: 09:33 That is really good advice and that's one thing that I always tell everyone is if you don't know who your customer is, then you cannot provide them with anything. You can't sell them anything because you don't know what they're looking for most of all. Exactly. And you want to know how to talk to them. If you can picture the person in your head, picture their likes, their dislikes, their wants, their needs, then you sort of know how you would describe the product to them and how you would talk to them about it. And maybe in an informal setting. Um, I think that that's an important thing as well as just to imagine that the customer is your friend and you have this amazing product that you want to share with them. And you just have to think about how you would talk about the product to them. Why, why did she buy it, why it's amazing and just thinking about what they want and what they need. So I'm trying to think of some examples here, but maybe like

Jemma: 10:26 a younger buyer. Sorry. No, I was going to say as an example, you work with Louis Vuitton but you also work with Zalando and anyone who doesn't know what Zalando is. That's pretty much where we're talking about this. That's pretty much the website I go to to buy all of my clothing and it's going to all different brands and all different price points and just a huge selection. And then you've got Lando, but then you've also got Louis baton. So what would it mean to you to write a description for over time compared to. You've got to think with Philando, you're going to have fashion conscious people because. Sorry to trained glad website. Again, everything on Zalando is stylish and you've got to think about what kind of.

Jemma: 11:09 But you know what, what are their priorities when they're buying clothes from Zalando? So it's going to be, they're gonna want it to be something that fits in with the rest of their wardrobe. They're gonna want it to be something that maybe makes a statement, they're not necessarily looking for an investment piece, although there are some designer pages on Zalando baton, you're talking about like the provenance of the fabrics you talking about, you know, this comes from this farm in France and reduce these patterns are inspired by vintage design. Whereas with Philando, you're maybe talking more about styling suggestions. So judy talk could be worn wes, a maxi skirt on trainers for us, sort of a modern, glamorous streetwear kind of see how you're just. Sorry, I think I've lost my thread a little bit here.

Caroline: 12:00 Um, so in that case, what would you know the difference between, just to help my audience in that case, what would be an louver ton client and what would be as a lander client, like say that they like something different. So how, how do you go through that process? I guess, can you explain that process to us of how you go from saying, okay, I've got this. Let's say you're doing a Teesha for Louis baton and a tee shirt Philando, and you've got these two very different audiences. What's the process that you go through to decide what's right,

Jemma: 12:36 so I'm just trying to think how to listen to what your customer's priorities and what they're looking for at this is often you can do this with surveys and things. Then you know what to prioritize in the description. So for example, with the land people might be thinking for a basic Solando tee shirt, people might be thinking more about comfort, maybe thinking more about you. They might be thinking more about the fabric where as employee baton they're going to immediately want to know, you know the fabric because they're making a massive investment in those t shirts. So they're gonna want to know what this is like? The purest cotton is organic, that kind of thing. A methods like a tee shirt with a logo on it. Again, you're going to want to start talk about the provenance of deliberately baton because those buyers are going to want something that's an investment piece that's going to always start the spring, summer 2018 we're asked is Alon Dubai or just they probably just want something that's going to really chill at the weekend so it's all about it started like the language you would use and just thinking what are they going to be looking for forest, because quality is going to be like a massive deal to somebody buying from an expensive website.

Caroline: 13:55 So what you're saying in that case is that no matter what you're selling first and foremost, before you sit down and think about what you're selling, think about who the actual client is. Exactly. I think that's the most important thing. Okay. So that's really good advice and it comes back to you and I didn't even speak about this in advance then. It's pretty much exactly what I've been screaming from the rooftops for so long. So go to just asked parker.com/blog and there is a, um, one of my blog posts. I've actually got a video training, it's completely free, jump on and it, and it's about working out who your customer is and who they are, what they like, where they shop, what they look for in clothes, what they look for in buying a new car or whatever it is that you're selling and find that out first because I think that's what Jim is saying. No, it's.

Jemma: 14:52 She's got two completely different brands. For example, Louis Baton and Tommy Hilfiger was Atlanta, but she has to write completely different descriptions, so I guess that no matter what you're selling, Jemma, if you don't know who that customer is, no matter how good a copywriter Ui, you'll never going to write the description unless you can write for that actual customer. Exactly. You have to think about who you're talking to. So for example, Tommy Hilfiger are quite useful. Sportswear brand. They want to be fun. They want to come across. As you know your mate to you, it goes to the list. They have a little bit of fun with our descriptions, which are very sharp, but there's always a little bit of fun, playful attitude in there. Whereas if you're thinking more from, you're not their friend, you're, you're an advisor rather than a friend being friendly. So again, it's that audience.

Jemma: 15:42 It's like if you're a high end carson, you start to feel like you know what you want, you don't want to be spoken down to. You want to get advice from somebody who knows what they're talking about. So you're getting yourself in the role of an expert offering advice or personal assistant saying, you know, I've, I've chosen these tights for you because of this, this and this, and it's just about thinking about your role and how did the person might be thinking of you. So with mother care, for example, we always, the character we sort of tried to channel would be a mom of five who lives next door. Oh, okay. Great one. So it's one of life's society friendly, very soft, very nonjudgmental. With borden, for example, you're taking the role of somebody, a friend who she's going shopping with, who's trying to talk her friend into buying this new dress because you've got to think about how you, the buyers, like what's their behavior on your website going to be like, if that makes sense.

Jemma: 16:34 Yeah. That's fantastic. That's really good to let people know. I think that that's some of those websites at this and with my clients, I've got websites where they sell a lot of different products so they might sell men's shoes, but then there might also sell women's handbags and their model, so sell iphone covers, but I guess that each of those people I had different types of customers so they need to write differently for each of those types of products. Yeah, exactly. But you also still have to keep your own branch one advice so you can think differently for. So men might. Men might not be as interested. I'm to essentially sexist, but men might not be interested in the same things as women. I think men are more practical, so if they're looking at shoes, they're going to be thinking about comfort as well as style resonant for women. The priorities style before comfort, although I think I think I'm more like command in that case, but I'm biased to start thinking about it that way you're still getting across your own personality. You're still thinking about your customer as. So for example, with Tommy Hilfiger, the customer is your friend with boredom, the customer as your friend, but with companies like maybe 10 living the customer would be maybe your boss at work who you're trying to get friendly advice to without getting too personal with them. Interesting. So a lot of people

Caroline: 17:50 that come to me and listened to these podcasts actually do drop shipping. So what they're doing is they're taking products from another wholesale website and they are just importing that data into their shopify store and a lot of them and not changing their descriptions. And I get a little bit, not a little bit. I get really, really funny about this. So what is your advice to those people and why that's a bad thing from your perspective and what they should do about changing their descriptions?

Jemma: 18:19 Well, first of all, I'm going to turn the control narrative here, but I think from an seo point of view, it's not get because presumably there are other companies doing the same thing, taking the same description. So you're going to get lost among all the noise on the first page of Google. You can get penalized for having duplicate content as well,

Caroline: 18:35 so

Jemma: 18:36 your result might not even appear and maybe one of those ones that you often see in the bottom. So I think just to make yourself stand out in the marketplace, it's a good idea to change the copy even if you're not changing it that much. It's just a good idea just to many of you are. You didn't use a few synonyms just so that you're not getting lost among all the other noise.

Jemma: 18:55 From another point of view, it's like if you're building your shopify store and you want to have a brand, people keep coming back to. You want to have your own distinct. An advice and you want people to identify with you and you want to be their first port of call when it's time for them to buy a new version of the product or to buy something similar and by writing your copy and having your own distinct way of speaking to people you're going to fellowship to. You're going to build your car, you're going to have them continually come back.

Caroline: 19:20 No, that's really good. And your advice on the Seo Perspective? I guess that's not one that I usually talk about, but you're right, you do get penalized for it and your website is not going to be shown if it's just the same content as all the other websites out there during the drop shipping.

Jemma: 19:36 Yeah, so it's kind of a shame because then people can't find your product that they're typing in. For example, Penn Council and covers and there are 10 other websites selling coffee issue

Caroline: 19:46 you've got.

Jemma: 19:48 To me, I think it's because of my background in search engine optimization. That's the first thing that I go to, but it's really as a brand building thing as well. You really have to have your own advice and it builds a rapport with your customers. That's how you build loyalty

Caroline: 20:01 and also a lot of those descriptions. I'm terrible sorry. They just don't. They're not written for the end user. They're written for the person who's buying it, so drop shipping point of view and I think that's odd that people need to understand is that know a lot of the times you're searching through that list going, okay, which products am I going to show my websites? And it's more about the price point and how much money you're going to make from it than the actual how it's going to look for your consumer at the end. Yeah, and do you really think about what your consumer wants? Yeah, exactly. So do you want to give everyone some tips on just generally when riding their product description?

Jemma: 20:42 Yeah, I would say again, just think about who you're speaking to. Thank you for that in store experience. So what kind of things are people going to be wanting to know about the product? So when you go shopping yourself, if for example it's clothes, you kind of want to know what the fabric feels like. Is it soft, is it technical for going, running? Is it maybe just have like some sort of adjective in there just to describe the way that feels. Even if you're not 100 percent sure you can usually start a towel for looking at it. I just think about the main things people need to know and why aren't they buying the product far as the important thing and they send all the. But if you're describing exactly what the product says, it reduces the chance of them wanting to return it. So if you are selling iphone covers, make sure you say what sizes of iphone they're going to be suitable for.

Jemma: 21:29 Explain how easy they are to snap on and snap off. Just get people a good picture of the product before they threw to end their baskets. Really. And do you have any thoughts on whether you use bullet points or technically do sometimes on websites you'll see at the bottom it's on the descriptions. It's got little things like a headline like size, dimension inside that. Is that important, do you think? I think that's definitely important. I'm a big fan of that because not everybody has enough time to read through a paragraph of text so. Well I quite liked kids. Maybe two or three sentences just to sort of summarize the product paints a picture of it in the buyer's mind, but then go on to the bullet points. Can just summarize there really important details, so like the dimensions, what it's made from fashion wash care is quite important because if you buy something that's dry, clean only and you don't know strike clean only you're gonna be in trouble when it comes time to wash it and just.

Jemma: 22:25 Yeah, just get older. Really key important points. Starting the bullet points so that if somebody had a heartbeat and they're just buying it quickly, they can scan that and say, right, okay, it's this big. It's made from this material, this is how I care for it, and then there's not going to be any disappointment there. Think that's interesting. I think that also when we were speaking privately last week, you were telling me about when you brought Philando that there's a certain style of writing that you use and that people read through these descriptions a lot. Yes, and I was saying to you, that's funny because I actually have never read a description on slander and I buy all my stuff there and I've just never read anything. I just pretty much look at a credit check the size information, but I've never read the description and just check what type of fabric it is and that's it, but what you were explaining how you ride and what they know because they know that don't they?

Jemma: 23:18 They know from people looking on the screen, they know who, how many people stopping to read and things like that. Yeah. They've got that information. It also proves is that there's a lot of people that are not reading, so just riding for one style of person is not going to be in your benefit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so while one person might love reading the product descriptions, some other people might just think now that looks good. I'm buying it, I just want to know the size. I want to know the material. That's fine. I think it's important to have information there and easily digestible chunks and again, back to Seo. I'm also thinking if I go, so if you're selling, for example, a pink cotton t shirt, you won't get able to know that that page on your website as a pink cotton t shirt, so you want to get your keywords in there as well.

Jemma: 24:03 Yeah, I think that a lot of people don't think about that, do they? They think, well the pictures that are pink teacher, they everyone should know that it's a pink tee shirt. Exactly. And do you have any tips for writing the about page? You did mention it before and saying how important it is. Is there any ticks, and this is an area that a lot of my clients get stuck on their about page. Is there any tips with the layout? How much text they should have, what they should start with? Is it important to talk about them? What advice? I think the best thing to do is to structure it similar to a news article, so think about it the most important thing she wants to say about your brand and then getting them all very briefly and the first paragraph and then expand upon them and the next paragraphs.

Jemma: 24:46 So if you want to talk about the area company lunch and the principle behind it, maybe just try and sit down to two sentences and then the next paragraph can be all about the year you launched while you launched the background behind it, why you decide to take this company had to or why you had to start the shop. For example, my friend runs a shop called fire while shopping sales travel gear for women and so her about page would be about why she felt that that was a niche that needed to be filled. So start going to your brand's history a little bit, but yeah, just your first paragraph. She tell people everything they need to know. Like, I know that sounds really silly thing. You're like your first few sentences. She said everything somebody needs to know, but basically it should be the absolute basics.

Jemma: 25:27 So if somebody just treats the first few sentences, they have a good idea of who you are, why your brand exists and what kind of products you're planning to sell, but then the next few paragraphs you go into more depth that I, you know, the reasoning behind it and why, and again this is just about building a rapport with your customer. It started giving them the chance to understand you and who you are and build a relationship, build loyalty, etc. And what about the people who say to me, and I hear this quite a lot, people saying, I don't want to be known as the owner of this website. I don't wAnt to have my name associated with it. I don't want people, for whatever reason, some people are setting a website that has no relevance, like men selling websites, selling lingerie and then they think that's a bit strange.

Jemma: 26:11 Why they the face of it. So what should they be putting on their about page about themselves? Should they, can they just leave out anything to do with the owner? personally? I think so. I think that's perfectly fine. I think it's fine to talk about your company and the third person. Okay. Fantastic. Do you think still having some information there that's personal, but not so much pessimism about that person, but personal information about the company. Then in that case it's about building rapport. Yeah, so it doesn't even have to be about the company. It can just be like, you know, we've launched this luxury brand to make women are in the world, feel like they're sexy, most amazing best and you don't even have to like talk to you much about the year you launched or anything like that. It's just if you feel like that's an important part of your brand story, then content in there. If you don't feel like it's an important part of your brand story, don't get to the end. Oh, you really want to be doIng is just talking a little bit about why people should be coming back to your page and your page is gates and why you're shocked is the best sharp on, on shopify.

Caroline: 27:11 Yeah, that makes sense. Definitely. So what about the returns page? This is a page that um, I've seen some really have funny, uh, messages of people saying we don't refund, we don't return and I know that you're not being very nice about it. So can you give people some advice of what you think is a nice way to create a page, that sort of wording to use?

Jemma: 27:39 Yeah, I think you want to keep. You don't want it to be to ask if you don't do returns. Maybe say we're really sorry we can't accept returns, you know, all purchases are final. Please make sure you know that you definitely want to buy it. You just kind of want to be really soft and gentle with people. Like, like explain why you don't do returns. I imagine with the drop shipping it's because you can't really take returns.

Caroline: 28:01 This set of products that you contact returns and they said in products that you can that you right, it's about riding it softly.

Jemma: 28:08 Yeah. Just use words like unfortunately, I'm sorry, but you don't need to be too flirty. I wouldn't say

Caroline: 28:15 no and I think another mistake that people make is that they try to avoid even telling people that they don't do retirement, so they just sort of don't put anything there and I'm like, but that only the hand is bad because someone purchases, they get a home and they want to return and then they find out that deep down on your website you actually never did retrends and someone should have found that by clicking 37 links to get to that page.

Jemma: 28:37 Yeah. It's always unfortunate to be open and honest about everything.

Caroline: 28:42 Yeah, definitely. So something nice, something writing it in a nicer way. Finding and nicer wording that. Is it using the words like you said? Unfortunately, nice way to put it.

Jemma: 28:54 And again just having it there for people to reach as you say, if there is. Because people have to click through to get to that information. They're going to lose trust in you, so although he didn't like that one product, they might have returned as a customer again because they're going to feel like you've been dishonest about your returns policy and made it just leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth while you're shopping in the future. Whereas this is kind of there and it's in their face before they buy the product. They're going to think, well, you know, I knew that they didn't allow returns are well, I should have read the returns policy first and they're not going to hold it against you so much.

Caroline: 29:32 Yeah, that's, that's definitely true and like you're saying, I think that you've said it quite a few times during our conversation is that you keep on saying about trust and I think that is the most important thing when it comes to getting sales is building that trust with people and using the words to build trust with them and allowing those people to trust you that you are going to be able to help them no matter what. Whether bay. Sorry, we don't do on returns unfortunately, but you've been honest about it upfront. Yeah, exactly. And do you have any final tips for everyone? I know that people are going to now run away and they're like, okay, well all my descriptions and make sure that they're up to german standard.

Caroline: 30:15 Just have fun with it. Like you know, I think people get really caught up thinking writings this really difficult thing to do, but agaIn, just pretend you're talking to a friend or you know, just visualize your ideal customer and your head and imagine taking them for a coffee and just think, what would I say to them in person and just write down a rough draft to the with. It doesn't have to be terrified. The grammar can be terrible. You can always go back and change it, but just get the words out of your head onto the page. What's amazing about this project? Why should people buy it? Why did she buy it from you and just play around with it. Have fun. Fantastic. Great advice. So Jemma, that has been wonderful and if anyone now is getting to the end of this thinking I don't want to do this on my own or they want your help in some way, how can people contact you and work with you if they want to or get in touch with you to ask you some advice.

Caroline: 31:07 But I have a website which is Jemma portrait.com. Again, it's kind of like the cobbler's children go without shaves. My website is terrible, but um, you can get in touch with me through there if you have to pick her up. Can then quilt content are always looking for new clients. The is called content.net. Either way they can get in touch with you from your website and then getting in touch and find out. You can dIrect them in the right direction once you know what they actually need help with precisely. And you work with accounts were like, I'm assuming with philando and tommy hilfiger, it's an ongoing thing because it always adding products. So you're constantly creating new descriptions when you hold them. Yeah, exactly. It's just so I worked with them through because they are also are massive companies, close a massive agency and yeah, it's just like a constant churn of products over and over again. Oh, fantastic. Well, Jemma, it has been wonderful having you here. I'm so glad that you can help people out and give us that advice because I know that for everyone listening, everyone can do better with their descriptions in some way or another so they can all go and take a look now and see what they can do to better their descriptions or their about page. So thank you so much for beIng here. Thank you for having me. Wonderful. Thanks everyone for listening and until next time, keep smiling. Bye.

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